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hsearchThis particular "times have changed" argument is built on the Ritva at the end of Kiddushin 82a, who writes:ReplyDelete
וכן הלכתא דהכל כפי שאדם מכיר בעצמו, אם ראוי לעשות הרחקה ליצרו עושה וכו', ואם מכיר בעצמו שיצרו נכנע וכפוף לו ואין מעלה טינא כלל, מותר לו להסתכל ולדבר עם הערוה ולשאול בשלום אשת איש, אלא שאין ראוי להקל בזה אלא לחסיד גדול שמכיר ביצרו
The Aruch Hashulchan brings this l'halacha in EH 21:8. While I can understand how one would be skeptical of most people utilizing this heter by way of a personal judgement, it seems fair to say that should we be able make such an assessment of the entire community, that to them x, y, and z do not cause men to become aroused; that there would be no problem with issuing a general heter for them regarding these things.
That being said, there are other peshatim in אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה which he ignores (though Rabbeinu Yonah and possibly the Rambam seem to learn like him), which make this not a problem in the first place. For example:
1) Rashi has a few explanations, among them that it refers to bitul Torah, or that it refers to confiding an argument that one had - because she will tell her friends and it will make fights.
2) The Me'iri learns that it refers to idle chatter, and that it doesn't really have anything to do with talking to women. In other words one should refrain from idle chatter which serves no purpose, even with his own wife, and certainly with a random person, and so much more so with another man's wife. The mishna simply picked the two extremes, which happen to both be women.
Wow, Dov, thanks for the references! Never heard of that Ritva before. I would say that from what Bruriah said to R. Yossi Haglili (איזה ללוד) it seems that Bruriah too, understood the Mishana like Rambam and Rabbeinu Yonah. But, as a matter of fact, most Rishonim (Bartenura, Rabbeinu Bachya, Rashbatz, Sforno and Rabbeinu Yaakov Bar Shimshon) do not understand the Mishnah the way Rabeinu Yonah understood it.ReplyDelete
Bar Uryan, thanks for the interesting link!